LG weapon balance

UnFreeZe/FreeFUn/spacius Game Servers forum.
nickaero
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 20:40

LG weapon balance

Post by nickaero »

Well somebody had to bring this up.
I am overall happy with the weapon balance on fpsclasico servers with the exception of the state of the LG, by removing the pushback upon hitting the opponent the weapon is now a glorified "finishing move" device, similar to the Shotgun. It has been sandwiched between the much superior close range option of the Rocket Launcher (also considering how tight and constricted "stock" Q3 maps are and the considerable buff RL has on these servers) and the mid-range option of the railgun.
I understand that the primary objective of this community is to have a big consistent playerbase, something that's very important in a 21 year old legacy game, the LG can be savage in the hands of a good player and possibly disheartening to players who just want to connect and have fun here once in a while. But in it's current state the weapon is borderline useless, even if you hit 35% or more. Surely there is a middle ground to be found between these two scenarios?
I propose either giving the player 150 bolts/LG ammo upon spawn or buffing the pushback up a notch.

nickaero
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 20:40

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by nickaero »

If 150 bolts seems too much consider this: the current LG ammo on spawn is 110. That is 770 total possible damage (7*110).
Now let's calculate how much damage I can give to my opponent. At the time of writting this the stats show I hit 38%. Ok, so 770*0,38 = 292,6
You can't kill a freshly spawned opponent even if you empty out your entire ammo clip, and that is considering he doesn't fight back and kill you of course.I just don't think it's fair especially considering you have enough rail and rockets to sell them on spawn

User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2213
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Vigo (Spain)

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by adminless »

I don't think the lightning gun in this this game is intended to be used to kill freshly (200/100) spawned enemies by emptying it, in that sense I believe the lg is fairly balanced here. this has been discussed other times even recently, with other settings, particularly with the addition of unlagged code/(near/virtually) zero latencies on today connections it becomes absurdly overpowered and pretty much the dominating weapon when by design it's not. as for the lg ammo, it's reduced on spawn but at the same time it's also augmented across the maps, that's intentionally done in a effort to promote mobility instead of camping so that's also balanced there.

Plumse
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 21:08

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by Plumse »

I feel like the balance of weapons on the server is such that it promotes the good combination of the trifecta - RL - RG - LG. I'm perhaps actually more dissatisfied with the plentiful RL ammo - both the starting amount and the ammo that's available across the map. It promotes blind spamming everywhere and is usually what degrades the whole experience at least for me.

On the topic of LG, I feel like it's tuned properly. I mainly use it after I've had 1 RL + rail connected or 2 rails connected to the target - as you said as a finisher.

User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2213
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Vigo (Spain)

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by adminless »

the rocket ammo is boosted across the maps (again to promote mobility) to account for the extra usage of rocket jumps and tricks.

Plumse
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 21:08

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by Plumse »

adminless wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 16:46
the rocket ammo is boosted across the maps (again to promote mobility) to account for the extra usage of rocket jumps and tricks.
That makes sense as well. I've just spectated certain people that legitimately run out of rocket launcher ammo and they have not performed one rocket jump :D

nickaero
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 20:40

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by nickaero »

I don't see how making LG ammo on spawn 110 reduces camping, when you camp one spot you do it with railgun and rocket spam on chokepoints. If I am camping a good spot I don't move to go get LG ammo (why would I, the gun is redundant anyway).

nickaero
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 20:40

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by nickaero »

adminless wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 16:14
I don't think the lightning gun in this this game is intended to be used to kill freshly (200/100) spawned enemies by emptying it, in that sense I believe the lg is fairly balanced here. this has been discussed other times even recently, with other settings, particularly with the addition of unlagged code/(near/virtually) zero latencies on today connections it becomes absurdly overpowered and pretty much the dominating weapon when by design it's not. as for the lg ammo, it's reduced on spawn but at the same time it's also augmented across the maps, that's intentionally done in a effort to promote mobility instead of camping so that's also balanced there.
Of course and I am not saying that the point of the weapon should be to overpower freshly spawned opponents, nor am I suggesting adding unlagged. The LG may not have been ever intended to be THE dominant weapon (to me that was always rockets both in Quake 3 and Quake World) but it was a clear second. If it wasn't intended to be overpowered it clearly also wasn't meant to be this weak.

nickaero
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 20:40

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by nickaero »

Plumse wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 16:41
I feel like the balance of weapons on the server is such that it promotes the good combination of the trifecta - RL - RG - LG. I'm perhaps actually more dissatisfied with the plentiful RL ammo - both the starting amount and the ammo that's available across the map. It promotes blind spamming everywhere and is usually what degrades the whole experience at least for me.

On the topic of LG, I feel like it's tuned properly. I mainly use it after I've had 1 RL + rail connected or 2 rails connected to the target - as you said as a finisher.
If it promotes a good balance between the three weapons why doesn't anybody use the LG?

i_cezar
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 0:53
in-game nick: Blaze

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by i_cezar »

Hi,

I would also like to share my opinion on this matter.

First off, everyone is entitled to say what they want or feel and that's ok, but remember that we also have some stats provided, which are the actual facts and reality of things. But as a heads up, some players might come here and say something like "Yes i feel its balanced alongside rocket and rail".
No it's not! Fully at least. If it were, you wouldn't be fireing 20 bolts a match, while RG/RL are at home. So that's easy to dismiss by facts in most cases. I'm saying that because there aren't enough people to fill the accuracy stats table, and only 6 players in total hit more than 30%(which is like a decent margin).
And for the record, here are by weapon, the top player stats at the moment(kills/game): RL - 18, RG - 19, LG - 3, plasma - 2, shotgun - 1.8, grenade - 1.
So i think it can safely be said that for now LG is more in the situational/experimental/troll weapon category on a server player base scale. It's more alongside PG and SG than in the main category with RL and RG. I repeat these are facts(stats), not a subjective opinion.
Tracking and sniping are the basic aim branches in almost any shooter game, and they translate at a certain degree from one game to another. In Quake tracking weapon is LG and sniping is RG.
I'm a pretty heavy LG user and i'm currently sitting in #2 acc with 38.27%, just .5 points behind my clanmate nickaero. And hitting ~12k out of 31k bolts in 180 played games.
So for me these are the LG cons:
1) no kickback(its inhuman to get a solid tracking on how fast models are moving)
2) low lg stock ammo(as nickaero said you can kill only one enemy); the adding of lg ammo everywhere on the maps was a nice touch
3)it feels hard to dodge the rail midrange(if you dodge 1 rail you can win lg vs rail with good track, but top 30 players here dont miss so much even with lg in their eyes)
4) maps have congested layout(you can use lg on maybe <30% of the map)
5) i can't stop players who rush with rockets(a common playstyle), even if i hit high acc as they move in a straith line

But i agree boosted lg is plain harrasment in the hands of good players, it wouldn't be a nice experience for everyone.
For me personally maybe a bit of kickback and most important, more stock lg ammo at the spawn time would do the trick. This keeping in mind the experience of other players aswell.

Thanks

User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2213
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Vigo (Spain)

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by adminless »

well the facts are also that with those play styles (heavy lg use) both of you are currently ranked number 6 and number 8 respectively as well as your clan actually won a tournament and one of you even a individual mvp award so the argument that the settings are so broken that you can't do shit is simply not true. overall is balanced and you both are receiving fair scores and results according to your play styles. obviously you can't expect to top the game just relying on the lg as your main weapon, you need to do something else too. people don't care that much about the lg/skip it probably for two main reasons, it takes a significant amount of skill and, yes, rockets/rail beat lg as you pointed out but not because the settings are broken but because that's just the way the game is supposed to be.

nickaero
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 20:40

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by nickaero »

But we ARE doing other stuff, we are simply asking to make the LG a viable option almost on par with rockets and rail.
"People don't care that much about the lg/skip it probably for two main reasons, it takes a significant amount of skill" Correct.
"Rockets/rail beat lg as you pointed out but not because the settings are broken but because that's just the way the game is supposed to be." Incorrect. Quake 3 was definitely not designed to have railgun beating LG on mid range fights or even close range fights. I would say LG is actually overpowered on the base game. I respect wanting to stay true to how Quake 3 is supposed to be played but if we are to stay consistent in our reasoning here why not have the LG do the same pushback as it does in the base game? Which I am not even asking for btw, I'd appreciate more pushback yes but not as much as base game

User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2213
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Vigo (Spain)

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by adminless »

hey if you want stock lg knockback (which is the correct term for what i understand that you're requesting) and 120 of spawn ammo that can be done (actually the knockback suggestion is very clever) but let me tell you it won't make that much of a difference as yes at the end of the day railing someone on the face while getting fried beat just frying someone all day as consistently pull that off takes a crazy amount of skill over the second. as I explained other times the lg is definitively well balanced on Quake III Arena in the sense that it was the most scarce weapon of the game (very few maps feature it and those that do even very limited) and pretty much on the hardware/connections of the era it was unusable (in comparison). things obviously don't translate that good twenty years later when you add unlagged/modern state of the art connections and on top of that you even give a free ton of it at each spawn, not so good, you end up with a overpowered weapon and a ruined/unbalanced broken game.

nickaero
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 20:40

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by nickaero »

YES I don't think unlagged is good, I want knockback, that's what I am requesting. And you don't even have to make that knockback as powerful as base game, (although I would enjoy that, not gonna lie lol) because like you say conditions today are more conductive to LG use then they were when the game came out. But the weapon in it's current state is simply far too underpowered.
Also something to consider that wasn't mentioned yet is that because there is a lot of rocket action when various players are fighting in the same spot, players will be subjected to a lot of push from rocket splash damage, which makes not only the opponents movement more unpredictable, but it also affects YOUR aim aswell since you will be subjected to rocket splash and need to adjust your crosshair. All of this makes it even harder to track the opponents.
And if you think that with these changes LG is still not as good as rail, well, I take that as a challenge 😎

alyeti
User lv5
User lv5
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 16:09
in-game nick: !WTF.Pacman!?
Location: u.k

Re: LG weapon balance

Post by alyeti »

nickaero wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 23:58
YES I don't think unlagged is good, I want knockback, that's what I am requesting. And you don't even have to make that knockback as powerful as base game, (although I would enjoy that, not gonna lie lol) because like you say conditions today are more conductive to LG use then they were when the game came out. But the weapon in it's current state is simply far too underpowered.
Also something to consider that wasn't mentioned yet is that because there is a lot of rocket action when various players are fighting in the same spot, players will be subjected to a lot of push from rocket splash damage, which makes not only the opponents movement more unpredictable, but it also affects YOUR aim aswell since you will be subjected to rocket splash and need to adjust your crosshair. All of this makes it even harder to track the opponents.
And if you think that with these changes LG is still not as good as rail, well, I take that as a challenge 😎
Ultimately again a good summary nick of points but a pointless topic , your good enuf player and score well enuf and can fight off the LG

Don't worry about us mere mortals we happy get fried balls and frying you of course , I can't raiil but I can fry from time to time , atleast simmer you for my team mates maybe just your left side


More importantly hijack thread time we need more grenades or grenade reset somehow or pickups

Has to be be grenade pickups somewhere just one spot , cmon grenades man

Dem mans need dem grenades 🤕